Interview by Luca Fumagalli

Dear readers of Radio Spada, today I have the honour of interviewing Julia Ashenden, daughter of Hugh Ross Williamson (1901–1978). Ross Williamson was a convert to Catholicism, historian and former Anglican clergyman, one of those English Catholics like Evelyn Waugh or Michael Davies who disapproved of the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council. In 1964 he was one of the founders of the Latin Mass Society, of which he was the first vice-president, and from then on he always defended the traditional Mass. Today’s interview is therefore motivated by the desire to delve deeper into his theological ideas.

Good morning Julia. First of all, thank you very much for agreeing to answer some questions. Let’s start right away: before addressing the questions raised by the aggiornamento promoted by the Second Vatican Council, could you briefly explain the reasons for which your father was prompted to convert to Catholicism?

it’s difficult to be brief over this, especially if this audience does not understand the variety of Protestant Churches in England! My father was brought up in one of the Nonconformist Churches, the Congregationalists, now called The United Reform Church. They have no Bishops and are similar to the Methodists. In the later 1930’s he converted to the Anglo-Catholic Church, which is a very high branch of the Anglican Church, formed by the Oxford Movement, in which John Henry Newman, as an Anglican, was involved. Their beliefs were as close to Roman Catholicism as possible, especially with regard to the Mass. In 1943 my father was ordained as a priest into this branch of the Anglican Church. Then in 1955 the Church of England chose to unite with the Church of South India (CSI) which was made up of many of the Nonconformist Churches, like the Methodists and the Congregationalists of my father’s youth, none of which were Episcopalian with Bishops. My father saw this as a dishonest fudge (compromise) and at this point left to submit to Rome, but as a layman not as a priest as he was married. About 20 other Anglican priests did the same over this, one of whom was Canon Rich, the grandfather of Dr Joseph Shaw, today’s Chairman of the Latin Mass Society!

Hugh Ross Williamson (1956)

At the opening of the Second Vatican Council, was your father more doubtful than hopeful, or the other way round?

He was doubtful….or perhaps highly sceptical would be a better description. I was just 16 when the Council opened, but it became a frequent topic of conversation. I don’t remember these conversations fact for fact, but I do remember their gist. My father thought Pope John XXIII well-meaning but mistaken in calling it and fearful of where it would lead.

What were your father’s ideas regarding Paul VI’s “Novus Ordo”? Why did he think the Latin mass was better?

He was deeply upset by Paul VI’s  Novus Ordo of 1969. There had been creeping changes since the close of the Council which hinted at what was coming but this New Mass, executed by Archbishop Bugnini and his team of mainly non-Catholic theologians, was a serious departure away from the Tradition of the Church and towards the Protestant Church. He wrote two pamphlets on these points in 1969 and 1970. “The Modern Mass: a Reversion to the Reforms of Cranmer” and “The Great Betrayal”. They have been reprinted together in a slim volume entitled “The Great Betrayal”.

Why did he think the Latin Mass better, you ask? He thought it true, handed down through the ages of the Church. Saints had been martyred for it throughout the Reformation. He saw the New Mass as a turning away from 2000 years of Catholic Tradition, towards Protestantism and the Heresy of Modernism. He maintained that the New Mass with Eucharistic Prayer 2 could be said in good faith by any Protestant Minister. Amongst all this he abhored the new Offertory Prayers, which took away the profundity of preparing a sacrifice. They are not remotely Catholic.

It was not just about Latin either, although that being lost, the Universality of the Mass was also lost which was tragic, but essentially it was that the New Mass changed the Theology of the Mass, in whatever language it was said.

Beyond the liturgical reform, what did your father think were the most problematic conciliar documents?

I’m not sure, but looking through them now, probably the one on Ecumenism, “Unitatis Redintegratio”. it’s a very woolly document. Nothing is said clearly and it promotes an easy way to a false ecumenism.

The Great Betrayal (Arouca Press, 2021)

After the Council did he change his opinion on the papacy? What did he think of Msgr. Lefebvre?

He felt let down by the Papacy. He never had great expectations of the Conciliar Popes and was unhappy with Paul VI over the Mass. He died before Pope John Paul II was elected.

He was a great admirer of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and likened him to St John Fisher, the only faithful Catholic Bishop in the Reformation who was martyred for his lonely stand. We had Priests from SSPX come to our flat to say Mass, or went to their Masses in Hotels, Halls and houses as there were no Tridentine Masses in any Churches.

Thank you so much again Julia for your kindness. Have a good day.

Thank you Luca…I do hope these answers are full enough, though not too full!

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